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A company that was the cheerleader of the open web is rapidly turning its back on every single open standard they once championned. Their latest move, announced yesterday at Google I/O, appears to be closing XMPP server-to-server federation. It is only a natural next step in a process...
May 16, 2013
21:24
On another note... http://conversat.io/ is simply awesome for multi-user video chat right in the browser. Great showcase of WebRTC. I love what the @andyet team keeps on building.
14:36
The current impact of HN on my site: serving 120 req/s for the last hour, Google Analytics realtime show ~700 active users. Already ~5000 unique. Will post a full recap when done with the storm.
13:51
Me happy :-) My first post making it to the top of hackernews :-) And now I watch my little server being self-ddosed..
13:08
What's next Google? Dropping SMTP support?
Comments
2 days ago
The question we have to ask ourselves is "Why?". Answers assuming bad intentions are missing the point.
There's a deep reason why email is the only successful decentralized network. And also the worst regarding tho spam, ease of use and problems.
There's a deep reason why email is the only successful decentralized network. And also the worst regarding tho spam, ease of use and problems.
2 days ago
My point is not that they *do not* but actually are changing course, and reverting support of things they once championed. That is the scary bit.
2 days ago
i think it's all about GOG vs MSFT:
a) MS do not allow GTalk = Skype
b) but MS wants xmpp to talk from Outlook to GTalk to promote Office 365
a) MS do not allow GTalk = Skype
b) but MS wants xmpp to talk from Outlook to GTalk to promote Office 365
2 days ago
Changing and admitting failure is part of Google culture and, for me, the biggest reason of their success.
We can say that they honestly tried. They tried really hard.
But it is simply not working. They are limiting themselves, they can't evolve the way they want.
I'm not saying that it is "good", I'm just saying that it is understandable and very predictable. I remember saying in one of my conference where someone told me that "XMPP was successful at taking over MSN" : "It's not XMPP, it's Google. The day Google drops XMPP, we will discover that only a tiny minority cares about XMPP."
I wish I was wrong…
(preparing a long blogpost on the subject ;-) )
We can say that they honestly tried. They tried really hard.
But it is simply not working. They are limiting themselves, they can't evolve the way they want.
I'm not saying that it is "good", I'm just saying that it is understandable and very predictable. I remember saying in one of my conference where someone told me that "XMPP was successful at taking over MSN" : "It's not XMPP, it's Google. The day Google drops XMPP, we will discover that only a tiny minority cares about XMPP."
I wish I was wrong…
(preparing a long blogpost on the subject ;-) )
2 days ago
"The good news is, we do not need Google to build the open web for us. "
If that's true, than I don't understand all the whining and crying is all about. Yeah it sucks when a service is closed down but that happens everyday. Why is it such a big deal when Google happens to do it - since *we* don't need them anyway.
If that's true, than I don't understand all the whining and crying is all about. Yeah it sucks when a service is closed down but that happens everyday. Why is it such a big deal when Google happens to do it - since *we* don't need them anyway.
2 days ago
@zaidira I think the bitterness comes from the perceived movement in google's culture. A move from their hacker origins to a corporate culture where the masses dominate. Time to move on I guess, but the effort required to replicate google's quality products is a little daunting.
2 days ago
Seriously, they didn't try very hard.
The XMPP community did, bending over backwards to accommodate them. A vast amount of serious effort has gone into reworking S2S authentication, for example, specifically to address Google's requests to make supporting Google Apps domains securely simpler for them.
Jingle was initially designed by Google, but yet they never implemented the latest standards as they were developed - and yet this was their area of greatest interaction.
I've even heard that some of PEP - another set of XMPP extensions they never bothered to implement - was guided by Google so they could deploy it.
Google have been known to use open standards, but they're rubbish at contributing to them.
The XMPP community did, bending over backwards to accommodate them. A vast amount of serious effort has gone into reworking S2S authentication, for example, specifically to address Google's requests to make supporting Google Apps domains securely simpler for them.
Jingle was initially designed by Google, but yet they never implemented the latest standards as they were developed - and yet this was their area of greatest interaction.
I've even heard that some of PEP - another set of XMPP extensions they never bothered to implement - was guided by Google so they could deploy it.
Google have been known to use open standards, but they're rubbish at contributing to them.
2 days ago
The day Google drops XMPP, we will discover that only a tiny minority cares about XMPP.
MSN was actually XMPP without federation
Facebook uses XMPP for messaging
MSN was actually XMPP without federation
Facebook uses XMPP for messaging
2 days ago
That picture looks a lot like Facebook email today
2 days ago
Mike, only a tiny minority care about SMTP, too.
But federation and interop are important, just as Larry Page said, and users will be feeling that loss - and are already.
But federation and interop are important, just as Larry Page said, and users will be feeling that loss - and are already.
2 days ago
Google has always said the competition is just a click away. Time to click away, no? I think Google should not set the standards for *my* web activities, anyway. I hope others remain and evolve.
2 days ago
I'm curious if anyone is interested in proof of concept of federated twitter like open source project I've created some time ago: http://dotmesh.org
2 days ago
God, I hate Google. We should stop using them. They're terrible and evil, and are slowly ruining the Internet. Anyway, I'm off to Google News to see what's happening.
2 days ago
Don't forget identi.ca and joindiaspora.com
2 days ago
Google has never cared about the "open web"... it cares about Google being able to access all information out there. It doesn't give a damn-- and never has-- about other people being able to access information.
It's sad that a generation of people have been deluded into thinking google is somehow a force for good. They are blatent patent trolls-- suing Apple (via Motorola) for standards essential patents, which started the whole patent war (Apple sued them in defense)... which is pretty ironic given that android is a ripoff of Apple's IP... all the while Google's publically running an anti-IP campaign (Because as an IP theif they want to get away with it.)
Yet people ignore the fact that Google is the patent troll that started the whole thing and delude themselves into thinking that Google is "right" ... becuase they want to own an android phone without guilt.
At this point, I have no sympathy for people who are so deluded that they think google is anything but evil. They have been evil (and uninnovative) for a long time.
This is not surprising given they make their money by violating people's privacy.
But the deluded fools think "oh this service from google is free, they must be benevolent!"
It's sad that a generation of people have been deluded into thinking google is somehow a force for good. They are blatent patent trolls-- suing Apple (via Motorola) for standards essential patents, which started the whole patent war (Apple sued them in defense)... which is pretty ironic given that android is a ripoff of Apple's IP... all the while Google's publically running an anti-IP campaign (Because as an IP theif they want to get away with it.)
Yet people ignore the fact that Google is the patent troll that started the whole thing and delude themselves into thinking that Google is "right" ... becuase they want to own an android phone without guilt.
At this point, I have no sympathy for people who are so deluded that they think google is anything but evil. They have been evil (and uninnovative) for a long time.
This is not surprising given they make their money by violating people's privacy.
But the deluded fools think "oh this service from google is free, they must be benevolent!"
2 days ago
I look at this as a golden opportunity to re-make the services they are dropping, and then sell them back to them for a nice few million bucks in a year or two. Cheers Larry!
1 day ago
There's not a whole lot of transparency from Goog as to why they make these decisions, so I can only imagine that as they've evolved into a purely commercial company supporting and championing interoperability has become a cost center that runs against some walled-garden vision. Who knows, but I think its sad. If anyone is interested, I'm developing an open-source+hosted API/transport pipelining system, reach out if you want to jump into the code its not released quite yet but happy to open the repo to collaborators... https://bip.io
1 day ago
Hey,
For email I really enjoy using fastmail.fm
Only $30 a year for having your own domain's email, else free.
Hope that's a useful tip for people.
Ian
For email I really enjoy using fastmail.fm
Only $30 a year for having your own domain's email, else free.
Hope that's a useful tip for people.
Ian
1 day ago
Thanks for the post! Google is certainly making many strange decisions lately, I think looking elsewhere for the services we get from it is essential before it is too late.
I am working on a system to easily self-host all the services you might need from your own home on a Raspberry Pi. All this with a simple graphical interface, making server management available for the masses. Check it out at https://ark-os.org :)
I am working on a system to easily self-host all the services you might need from your own home on a Raspberry Pi. All this with a simple graphical interface, making server management available for the masses. Check it out at https://ark-os.org :)
1 day ago
Yeah, ßingen and Ian, *lots* of alternatives out there. (I have a website and use domain-managed mail. Doesn't cost as much as you might think.) For those of us who wear tinfoil hats and don't care about the laughter behind us, read Brad Thor's "Black List". (Just because yer paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.)
1 day ago
Ploum said: "There's a deep reason why email is the only successful decentralized network."
Are you nuts? Lots of our most successful networks have always been decentralized! You can't seriously be suggesting that systems like Usenet, IRC, Bittorrent, XMPP, or the internet itself (!!) aren't successful.
Are you nuts? Lots of our most successful networks have always been decentralized! You can't seriously be suggesting that systems like Usenet, IRC, Bittorrent, XMPP, or the internet itself (!!) aren't successful.
1 day ago
I am working on a Feed reader which works with the open (and open source) API provided by TinyTinyRSS http://jabs.nu/feedthemonkey and on a Twitter-like client for the Open Social Tent Protocol (https://tent.io) http://jabs.nu/bungloo
1 day ago
""Changing and admitting failure is part of Google culture and, for me, the biggest reason of their success. We can say that they honestly tried. They tried really hard. But it is simply not working. They are limiting themselves, they can't evolve the way they want.""
I think the problem is not that Google is abandoning these protocols. (Lots of companies never bothered to use them in the first place, and we're not complaining about those guys.) The problem is they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.
From one side: open is great, Google is open, Google is better than our competitors *because* we're more open. From the other side: we're abandoning a bunch of the most popular open protocols because they're just not working for us (you claim).
I think it would be drastically different if they had said, hypothetically, "CalDav isn't flexible enough for the needs of Google Calendars, so we're proposing a new open standard, SuperCalSync, and inviting everybody to try it out with us". That would show that the existing protocol sucks (well, it kind of does!), but that they think openness can work. But they're not doing that.
I would *love* for Google to put out a press release that said: "We tried open source and open protocols. Nobody cares, and it holds us back. We're going to do everything behind closed doors from now on. Deal with it." Then at least they'd be honest.
I think the problem is not that Google is abandoning these protocols. (Lots of companies never bothered to use them in the first place, and we're not complaining about those guys.) The problem is they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.
From one side: open is great, Google is open, Google is better than our competitors *because* we're more open. From the other side: we're abandoning a bunch of the most popular open protocols because they're just not working for us (you claim).
I think it would be drastically different if they had said, hypothetically, "CalDav isn't flexible enough for the needs of Google Calendars, so we're proposing a new open standard, SuperCalSync, and inviting everybody to try it out with us". That would show that the existing protocol sucks (well, it kind of does!), but that they think openness can work. But they're not doing that.
I would *love* for Google to put out a press release that said: "We tried open source and open protocols. Nobody cares, and it holds us back. We're going to do everything behind closed doors from now on. Deal with it." Then at least they'd be honest.
1 day ago
Great analysis. this article is good. thanks for posting this article..!
1 day ago
We need personal clouds http://personal-clouds.org/ to restore control to us and give us a say in the features we like to use.
22 hours ago
Open is awesome as long as it works in my favor
21 hours ago
It's amusing to me that Google's apologists defend the company for almost any action, even when they would be howling if a similar action was taken by Microsoft of Apple. For some reason, there's a portion of the tech crowd that's bought the insane notion that Google has everybody's best interests at heart, so we can trust them. I appreciate and use some of Google's products, but I trust the company less and less — because their actual track record is nowhere near the record of altruism that Larry Page and his supporters would have you believe. (Just to be clear, Google isn't supposed to be altruistic. I'm just sick of the hypocrisy and the dishonesty about it.)
19 hours ago
So, when someone defends Google's actions, it may be assumed he also believes Google to have everyone's interests in mind.
I didn't see that assertion in these comments.
Fortunately, I haven't yet seen the "Google is just an advertising company" gem. There's still time, people!
I didn't see that assertion in these comments.
Fortunately, I haven't yet seen the "Google is just an advertising company" gem. There's still time, people!
19 hours ago
Great idea. They can drop SMTP and go with X.400 instead!!!!
18 hours ago
Here, Daniel: "Google is just an advertising company." (Hope I got that in, in time.) The Gorg isn't operating pro-bono. Employees gotta pay the rent and put bread on the table, so to speak. Guess where the bucks come from.
17 hours ago
To believe the core of Google's business is anything but advertising simply means one is not paying attention.
16 hours ago
"We at Google believe in freedom of speech, and that anyone who says otherwise should be locked up indefinitely"
11 hours ago
You should see the three year ling thread of comments begging them to add caldav (and carddav) support to android. http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=7639
This is something that has been in iOS for a long time. This underscored, for me, that Google's business model is not very conducive to open protocols in the long run.
This is something that has been in iOS for a long time. This underscored, for me, that Google's business model is not very conducive to open protocols in the long run.
7 hours ago
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
1 hour ago
Thats why we should avoid android to and use alternatives like jolla sailfish on our smartphones.
May 15, 2013
18:21
Nice, @comodit featured on @networkworld !! "Cool tool: One click installation of open source apps" http://t.co/JSVMjky5Gs
16:56
Liked the video - 225 Digits of π: An Irrational Auralization
15:07
Great coverage on @gigaom of our latest news: Want to let users test-drive your apps? ComodIT has a button for you. http://t.co/xHPY7FWRRY
May 14, 2013
15:38
Fascinating piece by the @guardian.co.uk giving a much needed context and perspective to the ongoing Syrian conflict.
"The origins of Syria's 'war by proxy' are therefore unmistakeable - the result of converging climate, oil and debt crises within a politically repressive state, the conflict's future continues to be at the mercy of rival foreign geopolitical interests in dominating the energy corridors of the Middle East and North Africa."
May 13, 2013
22:43
I do not understand the new Daft Punk
In case you haven't seen it, the new Daft Punk is available for streaming on ITunes. I'm just done with my first listening and I'm really disapointed. Based on the Collaborator serie teasers and the vibe of Get Lucky, I was hoping for a groovy, soulfull, funky, disco-house album. Unfortunate...
Comments
3 days ago
These songs would probably be really good to have drugs :-) Like you I think I hated every of their album on first try... second try... third try etc ... :-) But I think I will like this one ! I'll try few times more !
BTW, my fav track is "Beyond".
BTW, my fav track is "Beyond".
15:50
Kaskade LIVE from San Diego - It's You It's Me Redux May 3, 2013
09:19
Liked the video - Space Oddity
Chris Hadfield is amazing. First he delighted us with his various science experiments, then he oversees an emergency EVA to fix an ammonia leak on board ISS, and finally he wraps his six month tour aboard the station with a wonderfull cover of Bowie. Some amazing pictures in there as well.
You can follow Commander Chris Hadfield him on twitter.
May 10, 2013
18:18
Et en plus c'est "made in Liège". Celà vient de chez re-store, en Neuvice.
18:10
Perfect for the low ceiling in the kitchen. Made in Liège at the Re-Store.
May 8, 2013
11:50
AVICII - PROMO MIX 2013 - INCLUDING NEW ALBUM TRACKS
May 7, 2013
21:24
Fur Elise - The Jazz version
Ok, this is six years old, but somehow I'm just discovering it now. I love it. It retains much of the original piece spirit while adding an awesome jazz vibe to it. I love jazz and this is a perfect demonstration of what jazz is all about.
10:38
Smart objects + Google Glass + Virtual interactions = Awesome :-)
Smarter Objects from Fluid Interfaces on Vimeo.
Have a look at this video, and think about a future where you look through Glass instead of your tablet. Everyday objects overlayed by virtual interfaces visible through the digital lense.
Now we just need brain implents to make this even smoother and then we can drop the real world altogether :-)
Thanks to @karinslegers for sharing this.
Comments
Laurent Eschenauer mind=blown. Now itching to try to make some of these things ;)
on 7 May 13 at 21:27 CEST
@waterpigs.co.uk It seems 2013 is the year of the connected objects. With the Pi, the Arduino, and all other geekery stuff coming mainstream we see more and more cool stuff happening with smart objects. Add 3D printing, flying quadcopters, google glass, and it is an amazing revolution happening around us at the moment.
May 6, 2013
14:54
Are you #devops? Got the skills to help scaling a fast growing startup? Have a look at this new position at @woorank http://t.co/Yy2HsFiB0w
May 2, 2013
22:08
If I had known I would need my linear algebra to fly autonomously a #nodecopter, I would have paid more attention to the course :-) Now time for a refresh.
16:41
Liked the video - Daft Punk - Get Lucky 8 Bit
May 1, 2013
22:49
Shared the link Visual Navigation for Flying Robots
"In this course, we will provide an overview of current techniques for 3D localization, mapping and navigation that are suitable for quadcopters."
Awesome to have such a course available online together with all lectures in mp4 and notes. Perfect for #nodecopter enthusiats.
April 30, 2013
21:36
Awesome that @daraosn has compiled WPA supplicant for the #ardrone, so you can connect it to wpa wifi. Thx for this! https://t.co/kRqpyei7zi
11:31
Brussels/Belgium has a lot of catchup to do :-( RT @gmatuschka: Berlin attracted $226m in venture funding last year http://t.co/MqrdaiK6os
April 27, 2013
21:47
Liked the video - Programming flying robots with Node.js
A presentation by Felix Geisendörfer (felixge.de) on programming parrot AR Drone with Node.js. Really exciting stuff, I'm looking forward to play with it.
April 25, 2013
12:59
Shared the link PayPal considering adding Bitcoin as a funding instrument
"And I think here, for us at PayPal, it's just a question of whether Bitcoin will make its way to PayPal's funding instrument or not, and we're kind of thinking about it right now."
Woaw. Imagine being able to use BTC on any site already accepting Paypal, with all the bonus of merchant protection etc... It seems PayPal understands how much bitcoin could disrupt their business and are thinking how to best leverage it instead of fighting it. Brilliant.
Here is the video, the bitcoin comment is at the 2.55 mark.
12:40
Madeon Triple J Mix
April 24, 2013
21:30
We are on #hackernews front page! Woot :-) "The First Federated #Indieweb Comment Thread" - Keep on upvoting :-) https://news.ycombinator.com/
14:57
Google Glass, Parrot AR 2.0, Nao robot, Makerbot 3D, Peeble watch... so many cool gadgets to play and hack with ! Exciting times ! But so expensive, and so little time..
10:14
Yeah ! The HTML5 spec just put #bitcoin in the same whitelist as mailto! Isn't that awesome? (/via https://plus.google.com/+marshallk/posts/EkfksZvZhAF)
09:43
Shared the link The First Federated #Indieweb Comment Thread
Great summary by Tantek on our #indieweb achievements of the last days. Implementing federation with pingback and microformats is dead easy, when are you joining the conversation ?
April 23, 2013
14:31
I love how @creationix is re-inventing nodejs web development and explaining it at @realtimeconfeu - watch live http://t.co/dZqN3HRxpY
12:53
Reality check for startups... RT @techcrunch What you need to raise $1m. http://t.co/ugv4pQlhJw /cc @betagroup @startupbe @nest_up
09:54
Fédérer les conversations sur le web, comme alternative aux silos que sont Twitter et Facebook, c'est possible! Un exemple ici d'une conversation sur l'#indieweb. Et toi ? Quand vas-tu nous rejoindre ?
http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html
09:18
Shared the link CameraSim simulates a digital SLR camera
Awesome little webapp that simulates a SLR camera. Great if you want to play and learn tweaking your iso/aperture/shutter.
April 22, 2013
23:18
Having a federated conversation across the #indieweb
The commenters on this post have done so from their own site, in an #indieweb spirit, and notifying my site via pingbacks. This enable a true, federated, two-way conversation in the open web.
No silos, no paywall, no control by a single entity or government. Pure freedom, at least as pure as emailing or calling someone.
I love it :) When are you joining the conversation ?
Featured in this picture are @aaronparecki.com, @tantek.com and @christopheducamp.com
April 20, 2013
22:50
Daft Punk | Get Lucky (Obenhaus RMX)
I'm amazed that there are already some remixes available on Soundcloud, and some are quite good. I really dig this one.
April 19, 2013
20:26
Comments
on 20 Apr 13 at 0:57 CEST
Laurent, are the REPLIES FROM THE #INDIEWEB displayed automatically, are you manually adding them, or automatically queued and you're just manually approving them?
on 20 Apr 13 at 8:15 CEST
@tantek.com It is automatic, when I receive a pingback I parse the source for mf2 content to find a hcard and hentry. No moderation, but I receive an email when someone comment/mention so I can react/delete if spammy.
Next for me is to also support webmentions, and enable a 'in-reply-to' flow.
Next for me is to also support webmentions, and enable a 'in-reply-to' flow.
on 22 Apr 13 at 22:27 CEST
And now we have unified local/indieweb comments, time ordered ! Let's have a real distributed conversation :-)
on 22 Apr 13 at 22:56 CEST
@aaronparecki.com This is a reply to your reply, making it a really distributed conversation :-)
on 23 Apr 13 at 9:39 CEST
@waterpigs.co.uk Thanks for helping out. Could not have done it without your php-mf2 library!
on 24 Apr 13 at 13:26 CEST
Hey Laurent, how do you know where you have to "attach" the reply, or do you run this task by hand?
on 24 Apr 13 at 14:04 CEST
@notizblog.org Everything is automatic. The pingback request as a 'target' which I map to an existing post (after a bit of regexp magic). In the 'source' item there should also be a link pointing to the target with a 'in-reply-to' tag. More details here: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment
on 24 Apr 13 at 14:21 CEST
Nice! It seems there is a bug in my mf2 implementation and your storytlr is using the title instead of the post.
on 24 Apr 13 at 14:25 CEST
There is also a few bugs in my side (also in my own comments timestamp as you can see :-). A bit more work needed, but we are getting there :-) Welcome to the conversation!
on 24 Apr 13 at 15:55 CEST
BTW, is storytlr also sending pingpacks/webmentions in the comments section? If so, do you have a source url for any "comment" or do you support some kind of html fragments like superfeedr does http://blog.superfeedr.com/fragment-subscription/ ?
on 24 Apr 13 at 21:19 CEST
@notizblog.org Yes, I send pingback for any mention within a comment (hence the @ at the begining of this comment) and the pingback is from a URl + fragment to the comment. I'm missing proper mf for the comment but it is coming.
Hopefully h-card entities should get expanded in the reply context for this note (crosses fingers)
16:55
I could watch astronauts doing EVA from ISS all day... these livestreams are amazing. Thanks @NASA ! http://t.co/RiwJZexNWU
April 18, 2013
22:15
Porter Robinson & Mat Zo - Easy
The kind of track that gives you enough energy for a whole day of coding :-)
16:48
Today we release Combox, a tool to deploy virtual dev env with ComodIT. If you like it, please upvote on HN :-) https://t.co/X7BE52uaYV
April 17, 2013
11:24
Liked the video - Evolution of Music - Pentatonix
April 15, 2013
12:56
The new Daft Punk. Get ready to be funkified. Full track of Get Lucky here: http://t.co/DjuF5ziYHP
April 14, 2013
23:13
Want to learn how to build a highly scalable trading engine? Follow the #buttercoin discussions, really cool stuff. https://t.co/R8eQ5gO0LQ
April 13, 2013
07:25
BitcoinAuth: using Bitcoin as an OpenId like platform to log into websites. What do you think? https://t.co/EcAm1J6xEW
April 11, 2013
13:30
Liked the video - Google Street View Hyperlapse
April 10, 2013
09:23
Shared the link Bitcoin Is A Disruptive Technology
When people dismiss Bitcoins because they can’t think of how they’d use it, they’re missing the fact that Bitcoin is a platform, not a product in its own right.
The 3.5 inch Hard-drives, the personal computers, the mp3, were all examples of disruptive innovations. First dismissed because they seemed inferior, but in reality transforming a complete industry. A typical innovator dilemma.
April 8, 2013
21:49
I just bought a bitcoin and transferred it to a wallet. I'm impressed how simple it was. Crazy concept. Still trying to understand it.
March 29, 2013
09:57
If you are running Postgresql in prod, read this asap and get ready for an update next week: http://t.co/CDC95AU8LG #postgresql #security
March 28, 2013
20:23
It took me months to decide myself, but after 10 minutes of using #awesomewm as window manager, I'm sold. Thanks @seyz_ and @raphdg !
March 27, 2013
23:10
Was great catching up with @alardw.com and chatting about the future of #storytlr. See you soon on the #indieweb, and congrats on receiving your first pingback :-)
March 26, 2013
22:55
@waterpigs.co.uk, thanks, I've fixed that quote too much, should work better now :-) However it seems I can't get/process your pingbacks :-( Would be nice if we can debug this together someday.
Comments